Transcript: Episode 2

This tran­script has been edit­ed for clar­i­ty. There may be dif­fer­ences between the audio and this tran­script.

John Moir: 0:01
Wel­come to anoth­er episode of the Urban Grief Shamans. I’m your host, John Moir, and today we have an insight­ful dis­cus­sion about the skill of psy­chopomp and its pro­found con­nec­tion to grief, loss, and heal­ing. I’m joined by my guest, a teacher, a trau­mat­ic prac­ti­tion­er and a griev­er, Cather­ine Grey Hugh­es, from Ottawa, Cana­da, who brings a wealth of knowl­edge and expe­ri­ence to this fas­ci­nat­ing top­ic. Psy­chopomp is derived from the Greek word ” soul con­duc­tor ” and is piv­otal in help­ing lost, con­fused or stuck souls tran­si­tion from their life in this world. Cather­ine and I share our expe­ri­ences and insight into this sacred work, shed­ding light on why some souls linger and the impor­tance of guid­ing them on their jour­ney. Join us as our dis­cus­sion begins.

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 2:24
It’s nice to meet you, John. I’m speak­ing about psy­chopomp as a part of shaman­ism, or a method or a heal­ing method. Psy­chopomp is actu­al­ly Greek, mean­ing soul or con­duc­tor of souls. One of the aspects of the work that I do is to con­duct souls, mean­ing that some­times souls get lost, stuck or con­fused and don’t pass through from the mid­dle world, as they see it, to the upper or low­er worlds, if you want to look at it from a free world per­spec­tive. Many cul­tures have prac­tices where they work with souls and ensure that their pas­sage goes smooth­ly. My expe­ri­ence has been that I know the help­ing spir­its that I work with. If there weren’t a need, I would­n’t see it. I’ve always gone from my expe­ri­ence that I find that there are souls, for what­ev­er rea­son, for dif­fer­ent rea­sons, don’t leave the mid­dle world. Some­times they choose to stick around to help their loved ones. Some­times they’re a bit con­fused because they’ve died sud­den­ly or have been med­icat­ed before they pass. Some­times I’ve also met souls who are afraid of mov­ing because of fear of judg­ment, depend­ing on their reli­gious back­ground. Some­times, you have souls who per­haps have com­mit­ted sui­cide in a real­ly tough state and are suf­fer­ing and are not will­ing to look else­where to con­tin­ue their soul’s pas­sage. For me, it’s just such beau­ti­ful work work­ing with these souls. I’ve learned much about what things hold peo­ple back when they pass. What are the things that they’re think­ing about when they pass? Also, about their care for their loved ones. Some­times, I’ve met souls who have cho­sen to stick around and not fol­low the call to leave this world from a soul lev­el, even though they’ve left their bod­ies because they are con­cerned about their griev­ing loved ones and want to stay and com­fort them. Then at some lev­el, after they’ve been around for a while, they lose the abil­i­ty or their way and can­not pass and hear that call for their soul to go on that next part of their jour­ney. On some lev­el, that can­not be so help­ful for the liv­ing. Yeah, yeah, it can affect you to vary­ing degrees. I want to look after you and make sure you’re mak­ing good choic­es in your life. Oh, we’re a lot of grand­par­ents, ages or things like that that want to keep. They think that it’s a way for them to look after their descen­dants, where­as from my expe­ri­ence, if they move and choose to heed the call to shift from this mid­dle world into the upper world or low­er world, they can actu­al­ly be more help­ful in my mind. My expe­ri­ence has been they can be more help­ful as ances­tors. That way, because they’re well, they receive the heal­ing they need and the change of per­spec­tive. If there’s a big dif­fer­ence, talk­ing to spir­its in the Mid­dle World who still have mid­dle world sen­si­bil­i­ties and issues and con­sid­er­a­tions, it’s a bit dif­fer­ent than when they move to the upper or low­er world, and they’re speak­ing from a place of a lit­tle bit more heal­ing because they receive heal­ing when they go to the upper or low­er world when I should say that when the low­er world, it’s in no way like what some peo­ple would pro­ceed as this hell or pur­ga­to­ry. It’s just a dif­fer­ent form of what many peo­ple think of as heav­en, or it’s like the upper world and the low­er world are inter­con­nect­ed. It’s just like a topol­o­gy as opposed to def­i­n­i­tion. Yeah, A lot of cul­tures. Many cul­tures see the low­er world as a beau­ti­ful place, and cer­tain­ly, from my jour­ney, that’s been my expe­ri­ence. I was just a friend that I was work­ing with in EMS.

John Moir: 6:44
her father had passed, and I guess it was two years lat­er she had. Can you check on my dad to see where he is? I did that and found him after jour­ney­ing to the last place that I knew where he was, which was the hos­pi­tal, where Bob was sit­ting there on a bench admir­ing a sun­set. I sat with them, look­ing at him. I told him for a dead man, you’re look­ing real­ly good. But I both had a good laugh. My ass, if there were any last thoughts that he want­ed to pass on to his fam­i­ly, said tell him that I love them. I said that’s all. I’m good, but can you give me a lit­tle more so they know I spoke with you? And then he pro­ceed­ed to give me Infor­ma­tion about keep­sakes he had owned that he want­ed to go to spe­cif­ic indi­vid­u­als in the fam­i­ly. Um, that he van­ished. She was hap­py. So you’re right that often, there’s no rea­son to per­form a psy­cho pump.

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 7:33
Yeah, not all souls stay in the Mid­dle World. Mm-hmm, help, and it’s up to them; they have their own Sov­er­eign­ty, so we don’t force any­body to go any­where. But some, you know, some­times in the hos­pi­tals as I’ve been in expe­ri­ences that where the hos­pi­tals have a lot of Spir­its hang­ing around, and I’m not sure that’s super help, help­ful for the those that are sick in the hos­pi­tal, or the staff For that mat­ter. So I think one beau­ti­ful place for peo­ple who know how to do psy­cho pump to go is the home and the nurs­ing homes because, and the nurs­ing homes, yeah, I mean, find peo­ple who are I real­ly have aren’t nec­es­sar­i­ly aware that they passed either. Some­times, you have to gen­tly explain to them that they no longer have a body and gen­tly and that’s what I want­ed to say: that’s a heal­ing in itself that you go, John. You were talk­ing about your friend ask­ing you to go help ask her father. There’s pow­er and beau­ty in some­one who still has a body. You know, for lack of a way to go, incar­nate, going and check­ing up on some­body, some­times peo­ple need to know that some­body cares. Well, and not for them to turn around and leave.

John Moir: 8:50
I’d have to grieve. I guess Cather­ine is it’s the same for a loved one or even a pet.

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 8:55
You know they are well on the oth­er side, quite help­ful and heal­ing. I think that you know for peo­ple to know that their fam­i­ly is at peace. I think is real­ly help­ful for them that their fam­i­ly mem­ber is at peace. I think that it also, on some lev­el, is heal­ing for the fam­i­ly to know that per­son is receiv­ing the care that they need in the Upper or low­er world and is not wan­der­ing. And I have had some expe­ri­ences with peo­ple who are in deep grief. Where if fam­i­ly mem­ber is stay­ing around Out of care or out of con­cern. But some­times it makes it hard­er for peo­ple to move on, and not move on in a way that I want you to think, to for­get about the per­son who’s past, but that they feel they’re stuck in their grief. They’re hav­ing a hard­er time mov­ing through the grief. I have had expe­ri­ences where doing psy­chopop work has real­ly helped the per­son who’s griev­ing. You know, as you said, on the lev­el that, yes, you know that now they’re at peace. Some­times there’s a bit of a mes­sage that is passed between them, but also, some­times those who have passed can be a bit heavy, espe­cial­ly when there’s trau­ma involved in that death; some­times ham­per the liv­ing, but it does­n’t come to a res­o­lu­tion, or it’s hard­er to work through it. I guess it is in my expe­ri­ence, and this is just based on clients that I’ve done work with that to help them get to not even the next phase, more about the process of grief, but to be able to move a lit­tle bit for­ward in their grief and process it in a dif­fer­ent way.

John Moir: 10:39
The long­ing, I think, is when we have a loss, it’s not just that they’re gone. Now that they have this deep long­ing, and I think they don’t think of that, there’s a mid­dle, through psy­chopath, to meet up with. They’re almost a medi­umship. If I’m you say, is that you know that?

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 10:54
Yeah, I go ahead. It does, like dur­ing psy­chopomp, work involves medi­umship to vary­ing degrees. Typ­i­cal­ly, when I’m doing psy­chopomp work, I’m not look­ing for evi­dence so much of who the per­son is or how they passed. I’m look­ing for a res­o­lu­tion of heal­ing for them and trans­fer­ring them to a place where they get the heal­ing. You need a lot of spheres when they pass that are in the mid­dle world, are very con­fused, and are in a dream. So many of the ones that are real­ly con­fused are not nec­es­sar­i­ly the best com­mu­ni­ca­tors in that way; when they’re in the Mid­dle World, they have not gone to that place of heal­ing, so some of the mes­sages they pass May not be the most from the most healed state. Some­times they’re wor­ried about their belong­ings, every­thing’s like that. Oh, I’ve wit­nessed that in medi­umship and oth­er things that some­times they’re more con­cerned about mid­dle-world expe­ri­ences or issues of wills or issues of busi­ness trans­ac­tions or Fam­i­ly dynam­ics, and those sorts of things are some­times that might not be as help­ful as if receiv­ing mes­sages from some­one who has crossed Com­plete­ly. I do have some expe­ri­ences from Clients where they keep hop­ing that their loved one will come to them in their dreams, and what I find is that if the spir­it is in the mid­dle world, they’re less like­ly to come into the dream state of the cor­ner or the indi­vid­ual, the griev­ing indi­vid­ual. But if they go up to the upper world of the low­er world and you’re com­ing from that state, it’s often not that long after where they will show up in the per­son­’s dreams and let them know that they’re okay, my dad had passed last Feb­ru­ary and I had no inten­tions of try­ing to look for him.

John Moir: 12:49
I was gonna give him 12 months to check them. Six months after his pass­ing, I was aroused from sleep, peer­ing at my name being called. I looked around, and I heard my name being called once more. I then heard my dad’s voice. He said I made it. It’s not quite the same, but we, affirm­ing our loved ones, try to reach out if pos­si­ble. I think from my expe­ri­ence that’s what hap­pens, and griev­ing, I think, not hav­ing that knowl­edge that their loved ones are okay, espe­cial­ly if there was trau­ma involved. If I were some­body’s fam­i­ly and Some­thing like that hap­pened, I could tell a sto­ry of what I saw or what was said, and it would bring great relief to the fam­i­ly and share a lit­tle bit more than I would oth­er­wise.

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 13:38
But it is like it’s a beau­ti­ful gift to be able to help souls, and I think it also teach­es us a lot about what hap­pens when a per­son dies and what are the things that they’re think­ing about, and I believe it helps when we are Our­selves approach­ing death or if we have loved ones that are approach­ing death, in how we can treat those peo­ple and what we can do to assist their pas­sage. I grew up in An Angli­can back­ground. I’m not prac­tic­ing any­more, but I was in a posi­tion where I was sit­ting with a friend of mine whose moth­er was dying. She was 90, and she had demen­tia, and it had just pro­gressed to the point where she had stopped eat­ing, and we were in. I was sit­ting with her. I con­sid­ered a big hon­or to sit dead. You were fear­ful, and I hap­pened to be there, and the anger came in. I’m sure they had come in to issue the last rights. I’m not on a per­cent sure if it’s called that in the Angli­can faith and all that it might be called some­thing a dif­fer­ent, but so the moth­er had been unre­spon­sive, though. When the min­is­ter came in and stood, a love­ly man Came in to speak the prayers she start­ed to mouth along with him, and I could see a huge weight lift­ed from her. Mm-hmm, and for some­one reli­gious in that way, some things said in that prayer about leav­ing your bur­dens behind. Mm-hmm, and being pre­pared to move for­ward to the next, the next phase of their life as a soul. Those are some of the things that we see when we do psy­chopomp work. Peo­ple are wor­ried about those who are left behind or con­cerned about their world­ly bag­gage or things they feel they may be judged for. I think that what a beau­ti­ful thing that you can do, whether it’s reli­gious or oth­er­wise, or through our work, to be able to sup­port peo­ple in help­ing them make that tran­si­tion in a way that’s unbur­dened.

John Moir: 15:44
Kather­ine, would you like to explain how we do the work of cycle pump heal­ing?

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 15:48
Oh, yeah, no, I’d be hap­py to do that. Yeah, we’ve talked a lot about what it is. We haven’t explained it, though, have we? Yeah, I’ve had to be help­ful. So, at least in this prac­tice, a cycle pod involves a mid­dle-world jour­ney for us. There are oth­er cul­tur­al prac­tices who would do it dif­fer­ent­ly Some­times there I’ve been, I’ve under­stood that there are some group, there are some dif­fer­ent cul­tures that deal a group cer­e­mo­ny to help a com­mu­ni­ty mem­ber pass when they’ve passed, and sup­port the soul on its jour­ney, and. But in this case, what we’re doing is we’re doing a mid­dle-world jour­ney, and we work with help­ing com­pas­sion­ate spir­its, and we’re doing a mid­dle-world jour­ney to that soul, as you did with the woman on the side of the road. And we’re going, and we’re hav­ing a lit­tle con­ver­sa­tion with them and ask­ing them if they’re hap­py, where they are and if we can be of assis­tance and we had a feel for the per­son and where they are and whether they need help. Some­times they say, no, I don’t need any help, and you see, that’s great, and you leave them be. But if they’re con­fused or they want a lit­tle bit more infor­ma­tion, you say that you can con­duct them, and then you give them a choice if they want to go up or down, and then you, through a process, a shaman­ic process, you escort them, and Then you drop them at the doorstep of the in, where there’ll be some­one there to meet them. In the upper or low­er world, there’s always some­one there to meet them don’t always know, but there’s always some­one their famil­ial psy­chopaths or oth­er beings that are, or fam­i­ly mem­bers that are will­ing to be there for the per­son, and then you leave them, and, in my case, the way I’ve been taught Is that we then close the open­ing. What we’ve gone through to drop them off and then we come back, often involves a lit­tle con­ver­sa­tion. I don’t get as much involved in their life sto­ry as pos­si­ble. Some­times they’re not able to real­ly com­mu­ni­cate that, depend­ing on how con­fused they are. But it’s real­ly about show­ing care. I’m here to check up on you, and I want to make sure you’re okay. For some peo­ple, it’s real­ly mean­ing­ful for them, espe­cial­ly depend­ing on how they pass. And then, I reas­sure them that they won’t be judged and that I’m con­fi­dent because of my explo­ration. I’m con­fi­dent that I’m tak­ing them to a place where they’ll be hap­py and they’ll be able to con­tin­ue their soul’s path.

John Moir: 18:14
And you know, it’s real­ly reward­ing, beau­ti­ful work. For those inclined to do this work, there is a teach­ing path to becom­ing a psy­chopath, cor­rect? Would you like to explain where they might be able to receive that kind of edu­ca­tion?

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 18:33
There are oth­er peo­ple out there who teach vari­a­tions at this work. Now, when I was look­ing around when I was try­ing to fig­ure out where I want­ed to study and what I want­ed to do, I found the foun­da­tion, and it spoke to me. There are uni­ver­sal and near-uni­ver­sal prac­tices that Michael Harn­er Wit­nessed, expe­ri­enced, and want­ed to see. What were com­mon prac­tices among shaman­ic peo­ples for sup­port­ing the dead, I start­ed study­ing with them, and I like it because it’s very respect­ful of the soul. There’s a com­ple­tion to it in that we’re Escort­ing the soul to a place that we know is good, that we’ve expe­ri­enced that, we feel good in our heart, and so for me, it’s that com­ple­tion of the activ­i­ty that’s impor­tant. That’s a heal­ing in itself. I like that. We can escort them to do that work, and that’s part of the prac­tice. It’s con­sid­ered advanced train­ing in a way, but you only do it with the foun­da­tion. You only need to do the basic work­shop, which we call basic. That’s not real­ly basic, but it’s the way of the shaman where you learn to jour­ney because you want to have strong jour­ney skills to do this work because you prob­a­bly jour­ney into the mid­dle world. One of the things I like about the also the way we teach it is. It’s actu­al­ly quite life-affirm­ing because we make many jour­neys to explore what hap­pens to souls when they pass. And what would you might like to, where would you might like to go when you pass? Because you do have some choice here, yes, you do you have such eyes? what would you like? Or final­ly, For your des­ti­na­tion to look like, what would you like to expe­ri­ence there? And so, in prepa­ra­tion for the cycle path work, you learn how to explore your own pass­ing. What would hap­pen to you as a soul, what’s pos­si­ble, what hap­pens to souls when they pass, where do they go, what kind of heal­ing do they receive? And all of that, I think, for some peo­ple, is real­ly help­ful for them to expe­ri­ence it on their own because I have a lot of peo­ple who come to work­shops who have lost some­body in our griev­ing. They are drawn to the work, which puts them at ease about where their loved ones are and what they might be expe­ri­enc­ing. But I’ve had some clients and stu­dents who are well into their 70s and 80s who found that work was also help­ful for them to lessen their anx­i­ety over their pass­ing. Maybe they were reli­gious at one time and are no longer and are won­der­ing what it would be like for them.

John Moir: 21:17
Well, it did for me. I found the whole expe­ri­ence of help­ing peo­ple that I knew and just my own expe­ri­ence of explor­ing all those dif­fer­ent topolo­gies like the upper, low­er, and mid­dle worlds, and I don’t know you. After those expe­ri­ences, you know some­thing is dif­fer­ent. No, you nev­er see the world in the same way again. Why do ankle pumps work?

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 21:43
Well, if they start by tak­ing a Tak­ing, learn­ing to jour­ney and learn­ing to be com­fort­able in the spir­it world a lit­tle bit more, I think that’s help­ful because you real­ly want to have some agency. I think that I encounter some peo­ple with a lot of built-in fear about the spir­it world, and so some­times you need to work with it a lit­tle bit for a while to get more com­fort­able, depend­ing on peo­ple’s back­grounds and what they’ve been taught. I think that peo­ple have to be care­ful. If they are hav­ing sig­nif­i­cant men­tal health issues, I think they have to work to see if it’s a good fit for them, and that’s a con­ver­sa­tion they could have with a teacher as well about that if it’s a good fit for them. If you’re in a men­tal or emo­tion­al cri­sis, I would not rec­om­mend it, not because it is nec­es­sar­i­ly gonna cause you harm, but because I think you need to be. I think you need to have some sta­bil­i­ty in your life to launch from there, and I do have peo­ple. I could argue, if you’re heav­i­ly griev­ing, that maybe it’s not the right choice, but I would dis­agree because I think that I’ve had peo­ple in the work­shops who are in that posi­tion, and it’s we’ve nev­er been help­ful for them. Yeah, I think this work, too, is that when you enter into these worlds, and you explore, you have access to these com­pas­sion­ate spir­its that can help you under­stand more about the chal­lenges you have in your life. And I find that peo­ple walk in ordi­nary real­i­ty, this every­day real­i­ty, with more pow­er and agency. Through this expe­ri­ence of work­ing with the help­ing com­pas­sion­ate spir­it and by learn­ing to explore the spir­it worlds, you can learn and gain a wider per­spec­tive, which you can then bring into your ordi­nary life. So I think you’re a ben­e­fit. Obvi­ous­ly, I’m a bit biased because this is my prac­tice.

John Moir: 23:41
Yeah, and it’s the basic work­shop kind of gives every­body who takes the pro­gram enough ref­er­ence and enough expe­ri­ence If they take their time just liv­ing it, being in it before they move on to oth­er more advanced work­shops.

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 24:00
Yeah, very heal­ing, and it’s to think that every­thing around them is spir­it, that they learn that very quick­ly, and in that sit­u­a­tion, they gain a guardian spir­it of some kind, either in ani­mal form or in teacher form, depend­ing on the least one that is there to help guide them. They can count on, and so there’s pro­tec­tion, ordi­nary life as well as in the spir­it world, and I think that’s one thing that peo­ple are look­ing for as well, which is this idea that they have these spir­i­tu­al allies that have their back.

John Moir: 24:35
That’s right.

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 24:36
Like. Michael start­ed this ini­tial­ly because he felt that West­ern­ers were wan­der­ing around. He saw in shaman­ic cul­tures that peo­ple had pow­er sources and pow­er­ful allies of the spir­it world, and he real­ized that in the West­ern world, peo­ple were wan­der­ing around with­out these spir­it allies. And that was real­ly the basis of how he even start­ed this. To teach this work and to devel­op this pro­gram, in the begin­ning, was for peo­ple to wan­der around, being more in their soul and hav­ing per­son­al pow­er.

John Moir: 25:13
Can you enlarge Michael a bit for every­body who he was and just the impact he had on the shaman­ic com­mu­ni­ty?

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 25:22
Michael Harn­er was an anthro­pol­o­gist, and at the time when he was work­ing with com­mu­ni­ties shaman­ic com­mu­ni­ties, the anthro­pol­o­gists were told not to get involved, and there was a lot of dis­re­spect for shamans and med­i­cine peo­ple that some­how they were talk­ing to the spir­it world was that they were crazy. And Michael was curi­ous and want­ed to talk to them and learn a lit­tle more about them. He saw some­thing dif­fer­ent when he was work­ing with them, and they said to him that if you want­ed to under­stand what we do, you’re going to have to get involved, and you’re going to have to prac­tice. So he went out­side of what was nor­mal in aca­d­e­m­ic envi­ron­ments by get­ting involved and prac­tic­ing with the dif­fer­ent cul­tures that he was with. Then that led to him real­iz­ing that there was some­thing real­ly miss­ing in West­ern cul­ture and some­thing that would ben­e­fit. And so he start­ed explor­ing how to teach prac­tices to the West­ern­ers, but not from a cul­tur­al point of view, but more from a method­ol­o­gy. And so he start­ed teach­ing, and the foun­da­tions were set up around 1979, and it’s been going ever since their branch­es all over the world, and real­ly the work­shop that we teach the way of the shaman is what he devel­oped over time, and it’s basi­cal­ly the same work­shop that he taught back then Of West­ern­ers, under­stand more about what shaman­ic cul­tures were all about and what were the ben­e­fits there, and also how could we expand our abil­i­ty to heal and be more respect­ful of our neigh­bours and the plan­et. He got to know many dif­fer­ent peo­ple in dif­fer­ent cul­tures and often took notes or would take down those teach­ings. He has a large body of knowl­edge at the foun­da­tion, which is a non-prof­it, where they’re keep­ing that knowl­edge, and some­times, in cul­ture, peo­ple have lost their prac­tices. They can go to the foun­da­tion and see if they have any­thing writ­ten down from Michael, from his research or oth­ers, and then he returns. It’s hap­pened where there’ve been prac­tices nobody taught to fol­low, and the foun­da­tion also shamans in cer­tain cul­tures where, with­out that finan­cial sup­port, they would­n’t be able to teach the prac­tices, and they may be the last of their lin­eage. And so there are many indi­vid­u­als that the foun­da­tion sup­ports to teach peo­ple in their cul­ture their prac­tices. But that was a dif­fer­ent time, and now we have to be real­ly care­ful about cul­tur­al appro­pri­a­tion, and it’s not. We don’t take it light­ly at the foun­da­tion, and I cer­tain­ly don’t take it light­ly, and so there has been a real effort over the years to make sure that if there is a cul­tur­al prac­tice that we ref­er­ence, that it’s ref­er­enced and it’s not taught unless it was some­thing that was giv­en freely or shared freely, and so that’s been some­thing that over time has changed with the foun­da­tion as well. Michael’s lega­cy, some would argue that he rein­tro­duced shaman­ism to the West to a larg­er audi­ence and has led to a resur­gence of inter­est in shaman­ism world­wide. And hope­ful­ly, I hope to be offer­ing more respect for those prac­tices in cul­tures from a West­ern point of view.

John Moir: 29:03
Yeah, and an exten­sion to that would be more respect for all that’s liv­ing, all that is, and we cer­tain­ly need to have an Earth-view per­spec­tive now, right?

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 29:14
Yeah, if you’ve engaged in a jour­ney to a tree or danced a tree, you’re less like­ly to think. You’ll think twice before cut­ting it down for aes­thet­ic rea­sons and pulp and paper. Or if you’ve jour­neyed to the riv­er and found out what its needs are, you will hope­ful­ly treat that riv­er with a dif­fer­ent kind of respect than we’ve been. From a West­ern per­spec­tive, I speak for myself of how we’ve been raised. I cer­tain­ly know that I was not raised with this type of world­view.

John Moir: 29:46
Diah has a kid, and I find that what shaman­ism has taught me is the need to love one­self great­ly, and when you can do that, then it makes it so much eas­i­er to love oth­er things just as great­ly, even though you don’t know them or know what it is, but that respect and love and car­ing goes out, and com­pas­sion goes out to all things.

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 30:10
Yeah, to the best of your abil­i­ty, we’re still human and unfor­tu­nate. For me, it’s like the West­ern habits die hard, so it’s incre­men­tal. I find that our inner life often changes faster than our out­er life, and so are some things you’d like to change. You’ve seen the light, and in a way, you’ve learned some­thing, but then it becomes the action of how you shape your con­sumerism or your way of walk­ing in this world to match what you’ve learned, and for me, that’s been a chal­lenge, but there has been change, though.

John Moir: 30:49
Rathen, oh, absolute­ly.

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 30:51
Yeah, absolute­ly. I’m very cog­nizant of the lack of per­fec­tion. You know that we do our best. We do our best. It’s, oh, when you know bet­ter, you do bet­ter, that’s right, and I absolute­ly always said that when you know bet­ter, you do bet­ter, and it’s just a con­stant sort of growth in that when you know bet­ter, you do bet­ter.

John Moir: 31:17
Let’s leave it at that note, and I like to say that a lot of what Cather­ine has ref­er­enced as well, as I feel like to get in touch with her lat­er on, I check the show notes and all that infor­ma­tion that you prob­a­bly be look­ing for will be in the show notes that will fol­low this pod­cast. Any last words, Cather­ine, you did pret­ty well so far.

Cather­ine Hugh­es: 31:38
Thank you. It’s a huge top­ic, and I I think what I’d like to leave with is that I do feel that it is bet­ter for the liv­ing, for our ances­tors to be at peace, wher­ev­er they are, that I think that that is some­thing that is ben­e­fi­cial for your descen­dants. So, what­ev­er you can do to be at peace and help your ances­tors who’ve passed to be at peace, I think it’s well worth the effort.

John Moir: 32:07
I could­n’t agree more. Thank you for join­ing us in the world of Shaman­ism and its con­nec­tion to grief, heal­ing and spir­i­tu­al growth. If you enjoyed this con­ver­sa­tion, be sure to sub­scribe to the. Urban Grief Shams. So you nev­er miss an episode, and if you have any ques­tions or would like to explore this top­ic fur­ther, please reach out to us with com­ments and sup­port in the world us. Until next time, may you find grace and insight into your own spir­i­tu­al jour­ney. Thank you, thank you.